いただき FORUMS - Itadaki

What I would like to see removed from games? Exploitable glitches =<

These can make something supposedly challenging into the easiest game you've seen. I don't even get why people bust themselves over to make a game impossibly easy. It ruins the point of trying to play the game

Ghostbane wrote:What I would like to see removed from games? Exploitable glitches =<

These can make something supposedly challenging into the easiest game you've seen. I don't even get why people bust themselves over to make a game impossibly easy. It ruins the point of trying to play the game

The path of least resistance is always popular.
Even when it takes more effort to exploit something to not have to do it properly as opposed to just doing it.

The ant-lion guardian bosses in Half-Life 2 can be totally rendered trivial by carefully pre-planned gravity gun exploitation allowing you access to high terrain the boss can't get to...

But why you'd want to carry that 12 foot long plank of wood across 3 levels is beyond me.

It isn't even nescessery @.@ and it's like "Why bother? You're killing your own enjoyment."

Ghostbane wrote:It isn't even nescessery @.@ and it's like "Why bother? You're killing your own enjoyment."

Yeah that's how I see it. I tend to play games the way they are intended to be played. I've never seen exploits as "defeating the game" like some people seem to. To me, its more like admitting that you can't play on the game's terms.

Fair enough =x

Chevi wrote:

Variis wrote:

Chevi wrote:

Narffet wrote:I've lost touch with good friends because all they do is WoW, and if they do manage to come out, they only hang with the other WoW kids and talk about WoW stuff.

Hmm, Narffet sounds like he's describing you, Variis.

That was only the first three months! :P
I've greatly improved since then.

More like greatly improved your WoW speak.

OUCH! Burn xD

And no, because Smash Bros. doesn't have the arbitrary depth that WoW and like games have. Sure, some people might get sucked into it (the old Pac-Man Fever and all), but 11 million? Blarg.

Narffet wrote:OUCH! Burn xD

And no, because Smash Bros. doesn't have the arbitrary depth that WoW and like games have. Sure, some people might get sucked into it (the old Pac-Man Fever and all), but 11 million? Blarg.

Is it really a burn if you know otherwise? I've always wondered that. Especially now that I'm in college, my play time is very regulated and there are sometimes entire weeks that I don't play.


As for your point, may we kindly direct you to Halo then? Counter-Strike? Dungeons and Dragons? Magic: The Gathering or any other card game where building a competitive deck can cost you hundreds and that's not even tournament fee'd? I've easily lost more money in the period of a month to games like it and Pokemon than I've ever lost playing WoW for over 4 years, and Magic alone has over 7 million players... I dare say there are more people playing a greater variety of games, spending more time and money in them, than anything WoW can cough up by itself. Its just a megalith within a much larger army of giants. Sure, that makes it an easier target since it takes up more space and gets more notice, but its hardly alone and not necessarily more noteworthy.

For example, lets say you want to get 4 copies of a very good card in Magic for your deck. Well, if you buy them online you'll probably spend $20 each and more than likely, more than that. This is, remarkably, the cheaper solution. You could spend over $300 and buy a couple boxes of boosters... but that in no way guarantees you even 2 of that card or even anything of equal value to trade for it. So, later, now having built your awesome deck that's probably cost you a couple hundred dollars, you want to play with it competitively in tournaments, and depending on where you go that's $5-10 each night...

I mean, damn. I spend less than 20 cents a day on WoW.

And what about the other things people don't question? TV? Movies? Books? Those, and gaming, are all the same to me. I mean, if you spend 5 hours watching sitcoms what's the difference between that and 5 hours of WoW? I don't see any. I myself only watch 4 hours of TV each week, maybe a movie every other month. And that movie, for 2 hours if I'm lucky since most are 90 minutes these days, is literally the cost for an entire month of WoW. So which is more cost effective for me? If we're gonna complain about spending money and time, I would argue that WoW is the much cheaper way to go, and at least in WoW I'm engaged in what's going on.

Why don't we yell at the millions of people who spent around a billion dollars just on The Dark Knight?

Or Comics?
Even *gasp* the internet!
I mean, if I'm going to spend the entire day doing nothing but goof off, then why not WoW? Its cheaper, more enjoyable, and outright better than a lot of games that have been made in the past decade.

Variis wrote:

Narffet wrote:OUCH! Burn xD

And no, because Smash Bros. doesn't have the arbitrary depth that WoW and like games have. Sure, some people might get sucked into it (the old Pac-Man Fever and all), but 11 million? Blarg.

Is it really a burn if you know otherwise? I've always wondered that. Especially now that I'm in college, my play time is very regulated and there are sometimes entire weeks that I don't play.


As for your point, may we kindly direct you to Halo then? Counter-Strike? Dungeons and Dragons? Magic: The Gathering or any other card game where building a competitive deck can cost you hundreds and that's not even tournament fee'd? I've easily lost more money in the period of a month to games like it and Pokemon than I've ever lost playing WoW for over 4 years, and Magic alone has over 7 million players... I dare say there are more people playing a greater variety of games, spending more time and money in them, than anything WoW can cough up by itself. Its just a megalith within a much larger army of giants. Sure, that makes it an easier target since it takes up more space and gets more notice, but its hardly alone and not necessarily more noteworthy.

For example, lets say you want to get 4 copies of a very good card in Magic for your deck. Well, if you buy them online you'll probably spend $20 each and more than likely, more than that. This is, remarkably, the cheaper solution. You could spend over $300 and buy a couple boxes of boosters... but that in no way guarantees you even 2 of that card or even anything of equal value to trade for it. So, later, now having built your awesome deck that's probably cost you a couple hundred dollars, you want to play with it competitively in tournaments, and depending on where you go that's $5-10 each night...

I mean, damn. I spend less than 20 cents a day on WoW.

And what about the other things people don't question? TV? Movies? Books? Those, and gaming, are all the same to me. I mean, if you spend 5 hours watching sitcoms what's the difference between that and 5 hours of WoW? I don't see any. I myself only watch 4 hours of TV each week, maybe a movie every other month. And that movie, for 2 hours if I'm lucky since most are 90 minutes these days, is literally the cost for an entire month of WoW. So which is more cost effective for me? If we're gonna complain about spending money and time, I would argue that WoW is the much cheaper way to go, and at least in WoW I'm engaged in what's going on.

Why don't we yell at the millions of people who spent around a billion dollars just on The Dark Knight?

Or Comics?
Even *gasp* the internet!
I mean, if I'm going to spend the entire day doing nothing but goof off, then why not WoW? Its cheaper, more enjoyable, and outright better than a lot of games that have been made in the past decade.

Wow, defensive.

The difference between WoW and games like Counter Strike, Halo, Team Fortress, MtG, DnD, ect. and so on is that they are not MADE to take hours upon hours upon months upon months to move forward. People play these games for extended periods because their design is good enough that their entertainment doesn't diminish. WoW relies on arbitrary difficulty curves made to expand the amount of time you're forced to play the game exponentially.

The hardcore will always be hardcore and will sink into their indulgence for whatever reason they have. But there is a difference between making a game people stay in and making people stay in the game.

DnD might be the one like that as well, but that moves me to my next point -- what about all those other things, huh?

When you read lots of books, you get presented new ideas. You get an enhanced vocabulary. Your thought process becomes stronger.

When you read comics you're presented with art, design, and literature functioning at the same time, which can inspire any number of facets within yourself.

When you play DnD, you use your mind's eye and your counting skills to keep track of whats going on, creating critical problem solving skills and imagination. Even moreso if you're writing the campaigns out.

You play WoW a ton you... get... really good at playing WoW. Maybe you can sell a fully-spec'd character for a lot of money, but thats just the system cycling back into itself. It can inspire imagery based on its own, since its imagery is already pre-made.

In summation... WoW (and most of the MMO genre) creates nothing aside from revenue for its creators. Its stagnation in a physical manifestation. Games are good distractions, I can't lie. I'll slip out into a game for a bit while arting because it helps diminish tension.

But there's a difference when I can play Ecclesia for 30 mins to an hour and get back to work, or when in WoW the next area I need to raid takes a minimum of 3-4 hours. That's a big-ass gaping hole in my day.

Blaming other things (TV, Internet, other games) is no defense. You may really enjoy playing WoW, and hey, more power to ya. I have great disdain for the product, not you. But you need to realize that at the end of the day when you've got that fully spec'd uber l337 character, you've... just got that character. WoW has made a culture where you might be able to sell off that character for a pretty penny but that's largely circumstantial and won't last forever. And also, how long did it take you to make that character? Weight the time it took you to spec it against the money that you're making and see how much you made per hour.

I'll go back to my damned dirty console now to play games with storylines, closure, and gameplay that keeps me playing for the fun, not because of the sheer amount you have to pour in just to progress.

But you don't have to do anything in WoW. Nothing is forced.

I could spend half an hour and PvP, and never raid at all. Heck, last year I didn't raid at all. I could spend 20 minutes just farming up ores. Or I could spend 10 hours doing that exact same thing.
That's a choice in how I spend my time.

I did not assign blame on those other things, I simply mean there is no difference to me. Especially as someone who reads a lot, has played DnD, goes to school, keeps up on politics, draws pictures, designs worlds and stories, etc. To me, time is time. So what if I type /played and see that I've spent 130 days on my shadow priest? This was not time spent "making my character" it is time spent "playing my character." More often than not, when I sit down and intend to play a game, the question in my mind is: What shall I play now? Forgive me if WoW is just a flat-out better game with a very enjoyable story. It may be open end-ed as far as my character is concerned, but its stories contained within do have a beginning and an end.

I am very aware that I don't make anything in WoW. When the day comes, and it will, that I stop playing, none of that stuff will come with me. Then again, I also have literally thousands of hour in Super Smash Brothers Melee, and none of that came with me either when I got Brawl. Hell, I lost Mewtwo and Pichu. Same with Phantasy Star Online. Or Doom 3, or TimeSplitters 2, or Advance Wars, or Resident Evil 4, or the Legend of Zelda, or Super Monkey Ball, or F.E.A.R. 2, or Metroid Prime... I'm detecting a trend. When I get gear some newer, better piece of gear in WoW, yippee skippee, I equip it, and I keep doing exactly what I had been doing before I got it. I don't work for it, its a by-product of my entertainment.

See, that's my point: Your claim is that it forces me to play. This is a very confusing concept to me. The game does not sit me down in my chair and say "play" while lashing my hands to the keyboard and mouse with leather straps. That's akin to the people who say they're fat because of McDonald's food. Brilliant idea: Eat something else. Likewise, if you don't like it, play something else. You bring up raids... but no where in the game am I penalized for not raiding. Its not designed that way.

I mean, this is a game you can play how you like. Wanna go kill mobs in EPL for 15 minutes? That all the time you have to play today? Cool, go do that! Got 10 minutes? Play a game of Arathi Basin, or check the Auction House. Help a guildmate run through Stockades. Got 4 hours to kill? Go raid Naxxramas if you want, or just run a bunch of dungeons, or do some quests, or level a profession, or even go exploring! Heck, as WoW has gone on they've been designing stuff to take LESS time than it did originally. 5-man dungeons take less than half an hour these days, and hey, if you don't have that kind of time just do something else! The game is so easy, and so fast these days, its almost disappointing at times!

Oh, wait: Wanna raise some pokemon for 15 minutes? Go do that! Got 10 minutes? Play a round of Smash Brothers, 5-stock. Got 4 hours to kill? Play a few levels of Doom 3.

I. Don't. See. A. Difference.

Maybe your gripe should be with the people playing, and not the game. If I were in your shoes, "losing friends to a game," that's what I would be doing. I'm not trying to defend WoW, per se', but its an argument that, when applied to anything, I simply do not agree with by any measure. People need to take responsibility for themselves. Redirecting blame to some sort of perceived enabler does not cut it for me.

hmm...things i would like taken out of games.


1.) i don't like having to collect coins in the game, i mean the game maker should send me a dollar for every coin i collect, i think that's fair.

2.) why is there more than one system? either all but one should stop making games/systems or they should combine their efforts to make one.

3.) is it really necessary that i look at the game while playing? i think the game needing you to look at the screen is a giant flaw. what if i'm in the middle of watching a movie!?

4.) i don't like how you have to push buttons to make things happen.

5.) games these days come in a round shape with a hole in the middle, that's just a big turn off.

6.) why do i have to turn on the machine to play it? that's just dumb!

7.) what are these polygon thingies!? why do we need so much, y'know if games were made where you didn't have to look at the screen then there wouldn't be a need to spend so much time and money on these polygon thingamadoos.

8.) i don't like online play. i mean, i like it, there's nothing wrong with it itself, but when i just want to play online and it forces me to play with other people, that's just going too far!

9.) i don't like this master chef character, i mean if he's such a master chef how come i never see any good food from him? maybe a show on the food network, anything?

10.) when i try to tell the man on the screen what to do he doesn't do anything, no matter how loud i yell! i think people should stop making games that don't work!

So... You don't like games!?

lol

Azrael wrote:hmm...things i would like taken out of games.


1.) i don't like having to collect coins in the game, i mean the game maker should send me a dollar for every coin i collect, i think that's fair.

2.) why is there more than one system? either all but one should stop making games/systems or they should combine their efforts to make one.

3.) is it really necessary that i look at the game while playing? i think the game needing you to look at the screen is a giant flaw. what if i'm in the middle of watching a movie!?

4.) i don't like how you have to push buttons to make things happen.

5.) games these days come in a round shape with a hole in the middle, that's just a big turn off.

6.) why do i have to turn on the machine to play it? that's just dumb!

7.) what are these polygon thingies!? why do we need so much, y'know if games were made where you didn't have to look at the screen then there wouldn't be a need to spend so much time and money on these polygon thingamadoos.

8.) i don't like online play. i mean, i like it, there's nothing wrong with it itself, but when i just want to play online and it forces me to play with other people, that's just going too far!

9.) i don't like this master chef character, i mean if he's such a master chef how come i never see any good food from him? maybe a show on the food network, anything?

10.) when i try to tell the man on the screen what to do he doesn't do anything, no matter how loud i yell! i think people should stop making games that don't work!

lol

Thats fair and I see your point. The only issue is, I don't see groups of my friends not coming out anymore because of Smash Bros. or DnD or anything else anywhere near the level that WoW does. Shizuki confirms that its not just me noticing it, and I've heard many other tales to that effect.

And you completely jumped over the point I made where games like WoW, unlike most other genres, is actually structured with intent to keep people playing as long as it can. No, it doesn't 'force' you to play... unless you're in a highly active guild, or you're trying to stay the same level as your friends, or you have to be on at a certain time to do something with a group, or you have to reserve the multiple hours to actually complete a raid, or you have to move from one place to the other, or you have to solve a particular quest, or you're wanting to collect the money and gear you need to progress further, or if you're wanting to make any significant progress at all, and on and on and on.

And you're defending something because you're shooting back with plenty of passion here. Like I said, its nothing against you, its against the game you play and the concept it holds. So its fun for you -- great! But why does it have to take so long to level and do stuff?

Variis wrote:But you don't have to do anything in WoW. Nothing is forced.

I could spend half an hour and PvP, and never raid at all. Heck, last year I didn't raid at all. I could spend 20 minutes just farming up ores. Or I could spend 10 hours doing that exact same thing.
That's a choice in how I spend my time.

I did not assign blame on those other things, I simply mean there is no difference to me. Especially as someone who reads a lot, has played DnD, goes to school, keeps up on politics, draws pictures, designs worlds and stories, etc. To me, time is time. So what if I type /played and see that I've spent 130 days on my shadow priest? This was not time spent "making my character" it is time spent "playing my character." More often than not, when I sit down and intend to play a game, the question in my mind is: What shall I play now? Forgive me if WoW is just a flat-out better game with a very enjoyable story. It may be open end-ed as far as my character is concerned, but its stories contained within do have a beginning and an end.

I am very aware that I don't make anything in WoW. When the day comes, and it will, that I stop playing, none of that stuff will come with me. Then again, I also have literally thousands of hour in Super Smash Brothers Melee, and none of that came with me either when I got Brawl. Hell, I lost Mewtwo and Pichu. Same with Phantasy Star Online. Or Doom 3, or TimeSplitters 2, or Advance Wars, or Resident Evil 4, or the Legend of Zelda, or Super Monkey Ball, or F.E.A.R. 2, or Metroid Prime... I'm detecting a trend. When I get gear some newer, better piece of gear in WoW, yippee skippee, I equip it, and I keep doing exactly what I had been doing before I got it. I don't work for it, its a by-product of my entertainment.

See, that's my point: Your claim is that it forces me to play. This is a very confusing concept to me. The game does not sit me down in my chair and say "play" while lashing my hands to the keyboard and mouse with leather straps. That's akin to the people who say they're fat because of McDonald's food. Brilliant idea: Eat something else. Likewise, if you don't like it, play something else. You bring up raids... but no where in the game am I penalized for not raiding. Its not designed that way.

I mean, this is a game you can play how you like. Wanna go kill mobs in EPL for 15 minutes? That all the time you have to play today? Cool, go do that! Got 10 minutes? Play a game of Arathi Basin, or check the Auction House. Help a guildmate run through Stockades. Got 4 hours to kill? Go raid Naxxramas if you want, or just run a bunch of dungeons, or do some quests, or level a profession, or even go exploring! Heck, as WoW has gone on they've been designing stuff to take LESS time than it did originally. 5-man dungeons take less than half an hour these days, and hey, if you don't have that kind of time just do something else! The game is so easy, and so fast these days, its almost disappointing at times!

Oh, wait: Wanna raise some pokemon for 15 minutes? Go do that! Got 10 minutes? Play a round of Smash Brothers, 5-stock. Got 4 hours to kill? Play a few levels of Doom 3.

I. Don't. See. A. Difference.

Maybe your gripe should be with the people playing, and not the game. If I were in your shoes, "losing friends to a game," that's what I would be doing. I'm not trying to defend WoW, per se', but its an argument that, when applied to anything, I simply do not agree with by any measure. People need to take responsibility for themselves. Redirecting blame to some sort of perceived enabler does not cut it for me.

And you're defending something because you're shooting back with plenty of passion here. Like I said, its nothing against you, its against the game you play and the concept it holds. So its fun for you -- great! But why does it have to take so long to level and do stuff?

Actually I'm just VERY argumentative when I disagree with something, ask Azrael. Also, I type very, very quickly and don't know when to shutup.

Anyhooo - Why does it take so long to reach level 99 in Kingdom Hearts? Damnit, I want that Ultima Weapon! Why do the pieces hardly ever drop? Why does it take so long to get everything in a game? I want all the music in Smash Brother Brawl, do I really have to play hours upon days of games with items on, when I hate items? Why can't I accumulate the money for the Chicago Type-writer in a single play-through of Resident Evil 4? Do I really have to play it twice, maybe even three times just to enjoy using that weapon?

I mean, we're talking about an RPG here, and a pretty tame one at that. RPGs are based around spending time with your character, especially the non-japanese ones which have always been far more open-ended, and in WoW I can hit max level in less than 5 days played on a character. Where I come from, playing single-player games like World of Xeen, Might and Magic 6,7, & 9, and Ultima 2, that's remarkably easy in comparison, where leveling just one member of your party could take days of straight gameplay, and traveling from one place to another was a damn chore. Hell, World of Xeen was two games and you had to install both on the same harddrive to unlock the third game to combine both halves of the plane into one planet! This took forever.

As for your specific points: Arbitrary numbers? Active guilds? Progress? Money? Quests? The only one I'll concede is that yes, you do have to schedule time to raid with multiple people, but ONLY if you want organization. You could also just log in and look for a PuG Raid, of which there are a great many, and raid only when you want to. As for progression, I've raided Naxx twice since the game came out and my character is more than ready to attack the next dungeon when its released. It didn't take 50 hours or play and a month to "gear up" it took 6 hours spread over two weeks. That's hardly a commitment or the draining of my soul.

Believe me, as someone who plays the game: If people are spending an exorbinate amount of time in the game it is because they have chosen to do so. A highly active guild doesn't matter if you're not logged in, there's only so much to do anyways and you can just hop in whenever you're online. Being the same level as your friends is a personal issue and one I won't address because that's not a construct of the game. Reserving multiple hours to raid is pretty simple, you either do or you do not. The dungeon isn't going anywhere, it will wait for you and the time that you have that sort of time to kill, and if you don't then don't worry about it. I can get to ANYWHERE in the game world from ANYWHERE within 5 minutes, travel is not an issue. Heck, it takes much longer to get around in most of the single player games I play. WoW is practically candy, its just so damn easy.

I still think your issue is with the player: If someone is worried about their e-peen, that's their issue and not mine or the game's. If someone really is so dedicated to trying to max out their toon, maybe they need to have something better to do... I do know what you're talking about: My brother is just like that at times. He will spend TONS of time to get that gem that offers +17 strength because he's not content with the +15 strength one... But hey, its there for the people who want to spend time with the game. If you don't have that kind of time, +2 strength really is a very laughable bonus, you'll never need it so don't worry about it. I mean, the only thing you need money for in this game anymore is vanity items. They don't affect your progress or punish you for not having them one bit, people just want them so they choose to go get them. Even the arbitrary numbers are literally just things floating around that you can totally ignore.

And don't take this as a personal attack or whatever, I don't get that impression from your posts but I want to just put it on the level. I just disagree, and I like having discussions with people who don't agree with me. Life is pretty easy and blind when all you do is seek out the people you agree with and ignore the rest.

I'll be honest. I don't care for WoW. It's not for me. And frankly, I don't like anything associated with it, people who have to raid so we have to wait until they're done to do something, inside jokes only WoW players would know, the fact that people consider it the best game ever compared to amazing console games they don't bother touching because they'd rather spend their money on WoW, that any MMO is vastly un-superior to WoW, I could go on.

My first MMO was Phantasy Star Online. And it was nothing like WoW. It was simple and easy, and very pick up and play RPG, you didn't have to go online with it. I will always love it, and I hate that if I bring it into conversation it's 9 out of 10 times compared to WoW. THEY ARE BOTH DIFFERENT GAMES. An MMO, but still different.

I think what Narffet is saying IS that more often than not the people who play WoW are TOO OBSESSED. I get it.

Narffet, I know Variis IRL, so me poking a bit of fun at him was because I know how he is and knew him when WoW started.

I apologize Variis for poking fun at you, but you know, you do talk about WoW alot! And you segway into WoW from conversations about anything, things not even close to WoW. Honestly, any of my WoW playing friends have ruined that I ever want to play WoW. I feel like as noob as I will be, you will all be trying to teach me things I don't want to be taught. And if I did something that went against you're playing style, it'd be like when Azrael was playing Resident Evil 4 (inside thing). I just want to play how I want to play, regardless of how suck it might be to someone else. Why should the way I play be "bad" if it gets me to the same goal anyways. Of course, I still won't play WoW, to me the characters are pretty ugly, and I don't care to play any of them.

Kinda veering way off now, but I don't think this was meant to escalate the way it did. We're getting highly off topic now, if you want to discuss "WoW Players" I would suggest making another thread specifically for that discussion/arguement. Otherwise I'll lock this thread if it continues.

Now, what I would like to be removed from games, or, not exist basically is the "made for the American market" mentality.

For example, the latest Tales of game for the DS has two versions, an anime version, and a CG "Final Fantasy-esque" version, catered to the American market. First off, if anyone else knows the Tales of games, they have ALWAYS been anime. ALWAYS. And this other version was a big kick in the face to Tales of fans. They claimed they wanted to get other players into Tales of, but then if that were the case those who got the CG version would want to play more CG versions, I would think. I just, I don't like it. I like my high quality anime drawn games, Final Fantasy CG is all well and good, but it seems like CG is all people are going for nowadays.

Take Street Fighter IV for example. I think it's ugly, I love the game don't get me wrong, but I wanted Third Strike HD Sprites. It kind of sucks that the new generation wants all these flashy graphics, and anything that isn't CG is rated in game magazines as "3 out of 5 for graphics, because they are outdated."